Keoki Interview:
Indy Magazine

How did you get into shaping?
My father used to shape with his brothers back in the day. I thought I could make a better surfboard than the one I was riding at the time so I asked him to teach me how to shape a board. Along the way I've learned from a variety of shapers - one a shortboard specialist, an old school California shaper from the 60s, a north shore gun specialist, a longboard only shaper, and a few others. I've developed my own style over the years, and have made an effort to remain open minded and be very critical of my own work. I'm still constantly thinking about how to make each board better than the previous shape.

1. What is the difference between Polyurethane foam, Molded EPS Polystyrene and Extruded Polystyrene foam? (These are the 3 foams that Usblanks will offer...)
Polyurethane and Polystyrene foams differ in their chemical makeup. Chemical makeup aside, the three foams that you ask about are different in their cell structure. Both extruded polystyrene foam (XPS) and Polyurethane (PU) foam are a closed cell type foam, which is made up of a suspension of tiny bubbles. Expanded Polystyrene (EPS) foam consists of small beads of polystyrene that have been stuck together. Many are familiar with EPS foam as is commonly used for foam cups and beer coolers. PU foam can be glassed using epoxy resins and polyester resins, whereas XPS and EPS foam can only be glassed with epoxy resins. EPS and XPS resins will react with polyester resins. All foams come in different densities.

FYI - - On a side note, there are two different polyurethane (PU) foams to be on the lookout for, one is a tolulene-di-isocynate (TDI) base, and the other is made using methylene di isocynate (MDI), a less toxic chemical. You should also be aware of a company called XTR, who has a patented system using the XPS foam - its been referred to as a lamination thermo-venting system, where there are holes punched in the deck after the board is laminated. This prevents delamination. The XPS foam has been known to delaminate�cthis is due to a problem with the foam degassing under heat and compression. Don't quote me on this one but I haven't seen one person who has made an XPS foam board without a delamination problem. If holes are to be made in the lamination of an XPS - epoxy board, then one must do so with the XTR system if the board is to be sold as a retail product, otherwise the board manufacturer would be violating a national patent. So really, the XTR system is the only way to go with XPS foam. To do an XTR surfboard without violating their patent, one must go through the XTR guys not only for the blank and resin, but also for the glass job (labor). I am not happy with EPS blanks. I as well as others that I know have had problems with the foam collapsing under normal use�cthis of course is referring to EPS-epoxy boards that have been constructed in the traditional method of foam core, fiberglass, and laminating resin. There are other methods of construction when referring to EPS-epoxy composites construction. Surftech and the Berger method are two examples of valid surfboard construction methods that involve EPS foam, epoxy resins, as well as other materials and techniques.

What do you prefer to shape with and why?
I naturally prefer to shape polyurethane foam. The main reason is that it has been the staple for so long, it's just what I'm used to. I have to adjust my shaping techniques when I shape EPS or XPS foam, which sometimes may double the amount of time that I spend shaping a particular board. More time spent shaping a board translates to a higher cost, which customers are not always prepared to pay for. Polyurethane foam is cost effective solution not only because of its reasonable price, but also because of the speed with which a shaper can attack it.

How many types of foam have you tried out?
I've worked with Expanded Polystyrene (EPS), Extruded Polystyrene (XPS), and also two different types of polyurethanes (which differ in their chemical base). I've worked with several different sources of Polyurethane which all have different characteristics, depending on the company that manufactures the foam.

2. Where did you get your foam from throughout your shaping career? (kind of know the answer but need a good quote)
I've relied on clark foam blanks for at least 95 % of the surfboards that I've ever made.

3. What happened to you personally when Clark Foam shut down? What did you have to do to make ends meet?
It took me a few days to grasp the real implications of the Clark foam shutdown. My glasser had contacted me within an hour of the shutdown, and I was in line at the bank when I heard the news on my cell phone. My first reaction was denial and shock. I think the bank teller was trying to ask me questions that I wasn't really listening to. I was about to make a withdrawal, but I instead decided to leave the money in my account just in case the news was actually true. That night I decided to assume the worst, and that I could either sit around and whine about the situation, or I could get off my ass and do something about it. I spent the next three weeks on the phone trying to find alternatives to Clark foam and alternatives to polyurethane. A week after the shutdown I had recieved shipments of EPS and XPS foam from California, and four weeks later I was on an airplane to Asia seeking an alternative source of polyurethane. In week six we had several hawaii guys testing our first foam samples under a planer. Despite a few production issues that we had to iron out, I'm looking forward to seeing the arrival the first production run very soon. After seeing firsthand the entire manufacturing process from start to finish, I have a better understanding of how long the process takes. It may take a few more months for the foam situation to return to that level of availability and convenience that we once took for granted.

4. How is business now?
I've been frustrated beyond belief because I've been unable to shape what my customers are asking for. There have been shipments of foam arriving from several different places but the problem is that we don't have the same variety of blanks or the correct rockers to allow the Hawaii shapers complete artistic and technical freedom. Not all of my designs will fit into the blanks that have been arriving, so I still find myself turning a lot of my customers away. The surfboard business is extremely challenging at the moment, and i believe it will remain that way for a at least a few more months.

5. What does the near future look like for you and independent guys like you?
In the near future I think a lot of the stock surfboard production will move overseas. It is not a question of if but really a question of when�cthe Chinese will soon figure it out, or someone might just teach the factory guys over there. This means that the larger surfboard companies will probably mass produce higher quality surfboards at a lower cost, which will ultimately lead to a weed out of independent shapers that don't stay ahead of the game. I've spent the extra time and effort these past few months to ensure that I stay on top of the recent advancements in surfboard technology so that I can remain in business for years to come.

6. For the novice- average surfer, how would you explain the importance of the quality foam core for a surfboard?
I think now that there are more options available, that the novice surfer, or any surfer for that matter needs to seek out a shaper that has explored the all options thoroughly. The reason is that a certain surfboard shape in one type of foam may ride completely different than the exact same shape in another type of foam. A good example of this is the difference in buoyancy levels of polyurethane (PU) and the extruded polystyrene (XPS)-XPS boards tend to be more buoyant than PU, and a smart shaper will take this into account and adjust the shape accordingly to match a certain customer. The same shape in both foams will ride differently because of the difference in buoyancy levels, among other things.

People buying stock boards off the rack will have more options, and might therefore be less informed of (or more confused by) the options that face them as they might not be familiar with the properties of certain cores or composite materials. Shop employees, and even the glassers might not know what brand of PU core would be in a given surfboard unless it is labeled. What I'm saying is that a very limited group of people will have an intimate knowledge of the vast array of foam cores and their composite technology, a matter that may affect any given shape�cthe shapers that have such detailed knowledge will be even more in demand.

7. How did you learn to shape?
My father used to shape with his brothers back in the day. I thought I could make a better surfboard than the one I was riding at the time so I asked him to teach me how to shape a board. Along the way I've learned from a variety of shapers - one a shortboard specialist, an old school California shaper from the 60s, a north shore gun specialist, a longboard only shaper, and a few others. I've developed my own style over the years, and have made an effort to remain open minded and be very critical of my own work. I'm still constantly thinking about how to make each board better than the previous shape.

How long have you been shaping for Kainoa?
I believe I've been shaping for kainoa for the past five or six years?

8. How did you meet him and become his shaper?
Kainoa literally destroyed one of my boards before he even rode one. He had originally seen a board that I had in the Quiksilver shop in Waikiki, and it was more of a funky fish type shape. Kainoa liked it so much that he pulled it out of the racks to show his wife, and in his excited fury the board hit a clothes rack and ended up getting horribly dinged. He ended up calling me to see what we could do about the board, and we got to talking about surfboards. I think we found in many ways we were very similar - he and I were both underdogs in the industry at the time, and more importantly we both shared a similar philosophy when it came to surfboard design and surfing. Kainoa is an extremely versatile surfer, he will ride 12 foot bombs at pipe with just as much excitement as longboarding in Waikiki or shredding four foot Ala Moana bowls. As a shaper I think that I share a similar versatility in that I feel just as comfortable shaping a Waimea gun as I do a classic longboard or a high performance shortboard. Kainoa was into boards that were somewhat atypical at the time, and saw that I had a thing for boards that were far from the norm. I still shape a lot of standard shortboards for kainoa, but will often times shape him funky boards that he loves to ride.

9. What is your shaping philosophy?
I see the surfboard as a medium through which the surfer is allowed to experience the rhythm of the ocean. As a shaper I am responsible for creating this medium that affects a person's emotions, sense of self, and general well being, among other things. The surfboard not only represents a vehicle of expression for a surfer, but from the viewpoint of a shaper the surfboard is a dimensional expression of an artistic and technical interpretation that is based on inspiration acquired through experience. Surfboards, in my eyes, are a physical manifestation of inspiration; inspiration that ultimately comes from both the surfer and the shaper. I often seek inspiration in the oddest of places, and it is important for many of my clients that I get a good understanding of their story also, so that I may often put that which makes them unique into their custom surfboards the best that I can.

10. What do you do to research and develop your surfboard designs?
Feedback from my clientele is important to me. I'm talking about not only the most articulate of pro surfers but also my clientele that are the average everyday surfers. I often ask my clients to tell me how a surfboard 'feels' rather than what they think about the shape. I realize that I need to experience things for myself, and so I will often ride whatever I have around, in all conditions so that I also can intellectualize what I feel in the water. I am not expecting myself to 'rip things up' when I surf, but rather I am looking for what I feel. I spend a lot of time drawing artistic and technical inspiration from outside sources - a good example of this is that many times people have caught me paddling canoe, whether it be canoe surfing or in the rolling swells way offshore. I've developed a lot of thoughts on rocker, bottom contour, planning ability, etc. based on my experiences in a canoe. I've been inspired by things as odd as an aviation exhibit at a museum in Europe. For the random thoughts that I do have, I'll get back into the shaping room and make something of it for someone to ride. Rider feedback from that point forward helps me to assess the validity of my thoughts in the world of surfboards.